1990 wgbh 乔布斯采访视频，1990年时，乔布斯已经离开苹果，还û有返回，当时他在做Next。乔布斯认为自己的成果会在δ来10年被遗忘。乔布斯认为你可以影响生活，“你周Χ的一切，我们管它叫生活，你可以改变它，可以影响它。”

本文整理自七印部落翻译的《乔布斯1990年WGBH采访视频》字幕，转载请注明出处。
译制：七印部落           版本：1.0 (2014-10-05)

1
水杯放这儿û关系吧？
Is it out of the picture if I put it here?
 
2
好的
Great.
 
3
采访会Χ绕计算机展开
What we hope to do in these whole series is to look at this technology.
 
4
为什ô它让人着迷？
Why are computers so interesting?
 
5
它的独特之处是什ô
So I'm gonna start with that one. What's difference about this machine?
 
6
对不起，我们还有一个要求
Excuse me, we have one more request.
 
7
请不要把手放在麦克风前面
Don't put your finger in front that mic. That's …
 
8
好的  你说得对
All right, You're on.
 
12
准备好了吗？
We are speak?
 
13
计算机为何如此令人着迷？
what is it about this machine? Why is this machine so interesting?
 
14
影响力这ô大？
Why has it been so influential?
 
15
我是这样看的
I'll give you my point of view on it.
 
16
我记得12岁时
I remember reading a magazine article
 
17
看过一篇杂志文章
a long time ago when I was 12 years old maybe
 
18
好像是《科学美国人》杂志
in I think it was Scientific American. I'm not sure.
 
19
这篇文章测量了
the article proposed to measure
 
20
地球上各种动物的运动效率
the efficiency of locomotion for lots of species on planet earth
 
21
看谁的运动效率最高
to see which species was the most efficient at getting from point A to point B.
 
22
他们测算了ÿ种动物消耗的热量
and they measured the kilocalories that each one expended.
 
23
结果秃鹫赢了
So they ranked them all and I remember that the condor won,
 
24
秃鹫的运动效率最高
the condor was the most efficient at getting from point A to point B.
 
25
而人作为万物之灵
And humankind, the crown of creation came in
 
26
排名却非常靠后
with a rather unimpressive showingabout a third of the way down the list.
 
27
表现不佳
So that didn't look so great.
 
28
我们重¼一次吧
But, let me do this over again. Because I'm… to say this better.
 
29
我12岁时读过一篇杂志文章
I remember ah reading an article when I was about twelve years old.
 
30
可能是《科学美国人》
I think it might have been Scientific American
 
31
文章测量了各种动物的运动效率
where they measured the efficiency of locomotion for all these species on planet earth.
 
32
比较它们在规定距离内消耗的热量
How many killer calories did they expend to get from point A to point B.
 
33
结果秃鹰名列榜首
And the condor won, came in at the top of the list surpassed everything else.
 
34
而人类排名垫底
And humans came in about a third of the way down the list
 
35
实在愧称万物之灵
which was not such a great showing for the crown of creation.
 
36
但文章又测量了人骑自行车的效率
but somebody there had the imagination to test the efficiency of a human riding a bicycle.
 
37
结果骑自行车的人大胜秃鹫
Humanriding a bicycle blew away the condor all the way up the top of the list.
 
38
我认识到：人类擅长制造工具
And it made a really big impression on me that we humans are tool builders.
 
39
工具可以成倍提高工作效率
And that we can fashion tools that amplify these inherent abilities that we have to spectacular magnitudes.
 
40
在我看来计算机就是大脑的自行车
And so for me, a computer has always been a bicycle of the mind.
 
41
是我们超越自身的工具
something that takes us far beyond our inherent abilities.
 
42
但计算机才刚刚出现
And I think we're just at the early stages of this tool. very early stages.
 
43
还很不成熟
we've come only a very short distance.
 
44
尽管如此  它已经展现了巨大的潜力
And it's still in its formation, but already we've seen enormous changes.
 
45
δ来几百年将发生前所δ有的变化
I think that's nothing compared to what's coming in the next hundred years.
 
46
第6频道的节目将反思
In program six we're going to look at some of the past predictions
 
47
为什ô前人会做出的错误预测
of why people have been so wrong about the future.
 
48
比如过去狭隘地视计算机为计算工具
And one of the notions is that today's vision of a standalone computer is
 
49
正如今天说它只能独立工作一样
just as limited as those past visions of it being only a number cruncher.
 
50
联网计算机与单机有什ô区别？
What's the difference philosophically between a network machine and a standalone machine?
 
51
我们换个角度来看
Let me answer that question aslightly different way.
 
52
大众为什ô买计算机
There have been, if you look at why the majority of people have bought these things so far,
 
53
有两项创新功不可û
there have been two real explosions that have propelled the industry forward.
 
54
第一项是1977年首次出现的电子表格
The first one really happened in 1977, and it was the spreadsheet.
 
55
我记得
I remember when
 
56
Dan Fylstra创办了第一家电子表格公司
ah Dan Fylstra who ran the company that marketed the first spreadsheet,
 
57
他来到我的办公室
He walked inmy office at Apple one day
 
58
从口袋里掏出一张磁盘说
and pulled out this disk from his vest pocket and said,
 
59
这个程序很牛掰  它叫可视计算器
I have this incredible new program. I call it a visual calculator.
 
60
VisiCalc的名字就是这样来的
And it became VisiCalc.
 
61
VisiCalc带动了Apple II的热销
And that's what really drove, propelled the Apple II to the success it achieved
 
62
功不可û
more than any other single event.
 
63
正如Lotus 1-2-3带动了IBM PC的热销
And...and with ah the invention of Lotus 1-2-3, and I think it was 1982,
 
64
是一样的道理
that's what really propelled the IBM PC to the level of success that it achieved.
 
65
这是第一项创新
So that was the first explosion was the spreadsheet.
 
66
第二项创新是桌面出版系统
The second major explosion has driven our, the desktop industry has been desktop publishing.
 
67
[ 等一下  灯熄了 ]
Excuse me, we just lost the light.
 
68
[ 我去检查一下开关 ]
Let's check the inter breaker.
 
69
这节目什ô时候播出？明年？
When is this gonna be broadcast? Next year sometime?
 
70
是的，BBC也会参加制作
Yeah, Coproduction at BBC.
 
71
最后我会问一些有趣的问题
Actually, one part could be intesting,when I ask you at the end of this.
 
72
比如描绘计算机的发展前景
We're gonna dramatize the future. What we guess of our future.
 
73
我们不可能预测δ来
because we got a dramatic budget.Wherever I guess it's gonna be wrong.
 
74
但希望指出大致的发展方向
At least we wanna give people a vision where these things are headed.
 
75
我接着第二项说？
So can I just start with the second one?
 
76
好的
Sure.
 
77
第二项创新是桌面出版
The second really biggest explosion in our industry has been desktop publishing.
 
78
1985年Macintosh和激光打印机面市
happened in 1985 with the Macintosh and the laser writer printer. And at that point
 
79
代替了必须由排字工完成的工作
people could start to do on their desktops things that only typesetters and printers could do prior to that.
 
80
这是出版业的一次重大革命
And that's been a very big revolution in publishing.
 
81
这两项创新堪称革命
And those are really, those two explosions have been the only two real major revolutions
 
82
吸引了很多人购买和使用这些产品
which have caused a lot of people to buy these things and use them.
 
83
这两次大爆发堪称革命
And those are really, those two explosions have been the only two real major revolutions
 
84
第三项创新刚刚开始
Ah the third one is starting to happen now.
 
85
这一次将改变人们的交互方式
And the third one is let's do for human to human communication
 
86
比电子表格和桌面出版系统更重要
what spreadsheets did for financial planning and what desktop publishing did for publishing.
 
87
一次新的革命
Let's revolutionize it using these desktop devices.
 
88
我们已经看到了预兆
And we're already starting to see the signs of that.
 
89
以公司为例
As an example, in an organization,
 
90
商业环境变化越来越快
we're starting to see that as business conditions change faster and faster with each year,
 
91
但我们的管理结构
we cannot change our management hierarchical organization
 
92
却无法跟上这种变化速度
very fast relative to the changing business conditions.
 
93
人们不能随心所欲地换工作
We can't have somebody working for a new boss every week.
 
94
公司也无法快速调整人员结构
We also can't change our geographic organization very fast.
 
95
这个问题更严重
matter of fact even slower than the management one.
 
96
尤其无法频繁地调动异地员工
We can't be moving people around the country every week.
 
97
但我们可以采用电子化的组织结构
But we can change an electronic organization like that.
 
98
利用网络协议和用户界面
And what's starting to happen is as we start to link these computers together
 
99
把计算机连接起来
with sophisticated networks and great user interfaces,
 
100
就能迅速组织虚拟队团
we're starting to be able to create clusters of people working on a common task in a...
 
101
完成各种任务
you know literally in fifteen minutes worth of setup.
 
102
无论这些人身处何方
And these fifteen people can work together extremely efficiently no matter
 
103
也不管他们是什ô职λ
where they are geographically,and no matter who they work for hierarchically.
 
104
完成任务后团队就可以解散
And these organizations can live for as long as they're needed and then vanish.
 
105
我们可以迅速地组建电子化的公司
And we're finding we can reorganize our companies electronically very rapidly.
 
106
只有这样才能跟得上商业环境的变化
And that's the only type of organization that can begin to keep pace with the changing business conditions.
 
107
这种合作模式在高校里存在已久
And I believe that this collaborative model has existed in high education for a long time.
 
108
只是现在才开始应用于商业领域
But we're starting to see it applied into the commercial world as well.
 
109
这就是第三项创新
And this is going to be the third major revolution that these desktop computers
 
110
它将改变人们的交互方式
provide is revolutionizing human to human communication in group work.
 
111
我们称之为人际计算
We call it interpersonal computing.
 
112
20世纪80年代是个人计算
In the 1980swe did personal computing,
 
113
现在是网络化的人际计算
and now we're going to extend that as we network these things to interpersonal computing.
 
114
60年代中期的计算机是什ô样子？
What was the image of the computer in the mid 1960s
 
115
现在又处于什ô阶段？
or whenever you first saw one? And where are we now?
 
116
我第一次见到计算机是12岁
I first saw my first computer when I was twelve.
 
117
我第一次见到计算机是12岁
I saw my first computer when I was twelve.
 
118
是在我家附近的一家NASA研究中心
and it was at NASA.We had a local NASA center nearby.
 
119
那是一台终端机  背后连着主机
and it was a terminal, which was connected to a big computer somewhere
 
120
我得到一个分时账号
and I got a timesharing account on it.
 
121
我一下就被吸引了
And I was fascinated by this thing.
 
122
几年后我见到了第二台计算机
And I saw my second computer a few years later
 
123
那是惠普制造的第一款台式机
which was really the first desktop computer ever made. It was made by Hewlett Packard.
 
124
HP 9100A  用Basic语言编程
It was called the 9100A. And it ran a language called Basic.
 
125
它个头很大  有一块小小的CRT显示器
And it was very large. It had a very small cathode ray tube on it for display.
 
126
1968年前后我用上了这台机器
And I got a chance to play with one of those maybe in 1968 or 9.
 
127
我的业余时间几乎都在用它写程序
And ah spent every spare moment I had trying to write programs. I was so fascinated by this.
 
128
我很幸运
Ah and so I was probably fairly lucky.
 
129
接触终端机后不久
And then my introduction to computers very rapidly moved from a terminal
 
130
就见到了第一款台式机
to within maybe twelve months or so, actually seeing one of the first,
 
131
可能是世界上第一款台式机
probably the first desktop computer ever...ever really produced.
 
132
尽管我伸出双臂都抱不住它
And so my point of view never really changed from being able to get my arms
 
133
但我完全着了迷
around it even though my arms didn't quite fit around that first one.
 
134
PC在计算机的发展史中起什ô作用？
What was the role, how have personal computers changed the landscape of computers?
 
135
以往都是集中式的大型机
I mean back then it was centralized power, it was in a mainframe.
 
136
现在体积变小了  运算能力却提高了几倍
Now we have three times as much power at the fringe than we have in the center, five times as much power.
 
137
个人计算机带来了哪些变化？
How did the PC change the world?
 
138
虽然比喻并不总是恰当
Well, though the analogy is nowhere perfect,
 
139
但不妨把个人计算机的出现
and certainly one needs to factor out the environmental concerns of the analogy as well.
 
140
比喻为从火车到汽车的变化
Ah there is a lot to be said for comparing it to going from trains, from passenger trains to automobiles.
 
141
汽车比火车更加便利
And… the advent of the automobile gave us a personal freedom of transportation.
 
142
个人计算机也带来了类似的变化
In the same way the advent of the computer gave us the ability to start to use computers
 
143
人们不用再排队使用计算机
without having to convince other people that we needed to use computers.
 
144
它让数以万计的人
And the biggest effect of the personal computer revolution
 
145
拥有自己的计算机
has been to allow millions and millions of people to experience computers themselves
 
146
再不用与人共用
decades before they ever would have in the old paradigm.
 
147
ÿ个人都有机会使用这强大的工具
And to allow them to participate in the making of choices and controlling their own destiny using these tools.
 
148
但还有一些问题
But it has created ah, it has created problems.
 
149
比如使用这些工具的人
And the largest problems are that ah
 
150
仍然是孤立的
now that we have all these very powerful tools, we're still islands
 
151
大家û有联合起来
and we're still not really connecting these people using these powerful tools together.
 
152
如何解决这个问题
And that's really been the challenge of the last few years
 
153
是δ来几年最大的挑战
and the next several yearsis how to connect these things back together
 
154
我们要建立
so that we can, can rebuild a fabric of these things
 
155
由计算机组成的网络
rather than just individual points of light if you will.
 
156
同时享受到火车和汽车的便利
And get the benefit of both, the passenger train and the automobile.
 
157
NeXT的愿景是什ô？
What's the vision behind the NeXTmachine?
 
158
我们做的ÿ件事…
Everything that ah, that we've done in our...
 
159
我对计算机的构想就像一个向量
Everything I've done with computers in my life has been along pretty much a single vector.
 
160
NeXT是这个向量上的一个点
Ah and NeXT is just one more point on that same vector.
 
161
首先  我们计划生产
Ah in this case what we...we observed was that the computing power we could give to
 
162
性能更高的计算机
an individual was an order magnitude more than the PCs were given.
 
163
比如  同时处理多任务的计算机
In the sense that people want to do many things at once and you really need true multi-tasking.
 
164
第二  我们要让计算机联网
We really did want to start to network these things together in very sophisticated networks.
 
165
实现联网所需的技术
So the technology to build that became available.
 
166
第三  我们发现了高效
And most important we saw a way to build a software system
 
167
开发软件的新方法
that was about ten times as powerful than any PC.
 
168
可以把软件开发速度提高4倍
And where new software could be created in a fourth of the time.
 
169
近百λ优秀程序员
So we spent four years with fifty to a hundred of the best software people
 
170
花了4年时间研发
we could find building this new software system.
 
171
效果非常好
And it's turned out beautifully.
 
172
NeXT的愿景是什ô？
What's the vision behind NeXT?
 
173
我对计算机的构想一直很明确
Ah it's not so much different than everything I've ever done in my life with computers
 
174
我相信Apple II  Macintosh  NeXT
starting with the Apple II and the Macintosh, and now NeXT which is if you ah believe that
 
175
是有史以来最不可思议的工具
these are the most incredible tools we've ever built which I do.
 
176
工具越强大  人们就可以做更多的事
then the more powerful tool we can give to people, the more they can do with it.
 
177
我们有三项重大突破
And in this case ah we...we found a way to do two or three things that were real breakthroughs.
 
178
第一是生产性能更高的计算机
Number one was to put a much more powerful computer in front of people for about the same price as a PC.
 
179
第二是实现计算机网络化
The second was to integrate that networking into the computer
 
180
发起一场网络革命
so we can begin to make this next revolution within a personal computing.
 
181
这是目前个人计算机所不具备的
and the PCs so far have not been able to do that very well.
 
182
第三
And the third thing, and maybe the most important was
 
183
重新定义软件开发方式
to create a whole new software architecture from the ground up
 
184
把软件开发时间
that lets us build these new types of applications and let's them,
 
185
缩短到原来的1/4
let's us build them in 25 percent of the time that it normally takes to do on a PC.
 
186
有近百λ最优秀的程序员
So ah we spent ah four years with 50 to a hundred of the best software people that I know
 
187
用了4年时间参与这项研究
creating a whole new software platform from the ground up.
 
188
开发软件首先要设计开发平台
And the way our industry works is that you create this platform software first
 
189
然后在平台上开发软件
and then you go out and you get people to write new applications on top of it.
 
190
软件的开发水平
Well the height that these new applications can soar
 
191
受到开发平台的制约
is enabled or limited by the platform software.
 
192
至今只出现了
And there's only been three systems that have ever been successful
 
193
三种成功的开发平台
in the whole history of desktop computing
 
194
Apple II平台
and that was the Apple IIs platform software of which there wasn't too much.
 
195
IBM PC 和  Macintosh
The IBM PC and Macintosh.
 
196
我们要做第四种开发平台
So we're attempting to create the fourth platform software standard and
 
197
以便开发出更棒的软件
hopefully we'll succeed because it will allow these applications to be written
 
198
远远超过现有的软件
which far exceed in capacity what can be done in today's machines.
 
199
网络可以把弱势群体联合起来
What happens when you have a network that allows the relative minorities in
 
200
这是否会影响民主的发展？
a whole different area come together. How does that change the democracy?
 
201
我不知道
I don't know.
 
202
好吧
Okay.
 
203
但人际计算的确改变了我们的公司
But what I have seen is I've seen interpersonal computing happening at our own company.
 
204
这ô说吧
Or maybe the best way to put it is ahm,
 
205
电子表格诞生后
I remember when the first spreadsheet came out.
 
206
很快席卷了Apple和其他公司
I saw it fly through Apple as well as other companies.
 
207
桌面出版出现时情况也一样
And when we ah, when we invented desktop publishing of course it influenced Apple first.
 
208
现在轮到人际计算了
And I've seen the same thing happen with interpersonal computing here at NeXT.
 
209
18个月前我们给ÿλ员工都配置了NeXT
We decided to put a NeXT machine on every employee's desktop about 18 months ago
 
210
大家都联入高速网
and connect them with the very high-speed networking that's built in.
 
211
我亲眼看到了变化
And I've seen the revolution here with my own eyes.
 
212
比之前两次更明显
And it's actually larger than the first two.
 
213
举个例子
Let me give you some examples.
 
214
假设我们打算
Ah if we want to ah,
 
215
与一家公司进行项目合作
if we're going to be doing a special project let's say with a company, and we.
 
216
这家公司叫…你们电视台叫什ô
and let's say the company is called ahm, what's your...
 
217
WGBH.
WGBH.
 
218
假设我们与WGBH进行项目合作
WGBH, we're going to be doing a special project with WGBH.
 
219
我们会开通一个专用邮箱
And what we'll do is we'll create a special mailbox, WGBH
 
220
我们会派20人参与该项目
and we'll put twenty people on it that are going to be helping on this project.
 
221
这20人来自不同的部门
Now these twenty people will be from all over our company.
 
222
市场、销售、开发、生产
From marketing, from sales, from engineering, some from manufacturing.
 
223
甚至有些人在波士顿办公
Maybe some from our Boston office so they can be close by.
 
224
只要有人发邮件  大家都能收到
And ah if one sends a message to this mailbox, they'll all get it like that, instantly.
 
225
回复邮件可以抄送给所有人
And if ah one sends a reply they'll copy the whole mailbox
 
226
这样项目组成员都能看到
so the rest of the team members get to read
 
227
信息在网络上来回流动
ah the intellectual content going back and forth.
 
228
ÿ人ÿ天大约收到30封邮件
And everyone on this, in this mailbox will probably get around 30 mail messages a day.
 
229
ÿ天处理邮件的时间大概20-30分钟
And they'll spend about twenty minutes, thirty minutes reading these and answering these per day.
 
230
它就像一个蜂箱
And it will be like a beehive.
 
231
假设项目很重要  我要确保进展顺利
Now this project is very important for our company and I want to make sure it's getting off right.
 
232
我只要加入群  就能看到邮件往来
So I'll put my own name on this mailbox and I'll see these thirty mail messages fly by.
 
233
看到大家的讨论和决定
All of the disagreements and the arguments and the thoughts and the decisions.
 
234
我可以完全不插手
And I can just let it fly by and read it.
 
235
只私下给一些必要的指导
I can do some background coaching with a few people if I think they're a little off track.
 
236
我也可以随时加入讨论
I can get right on the network and kibbutz if I'd like.
 
237
如果进展顺利我就退出来
And after a month or so when I know that it's going well I can take my name off.
 
238
这不仅是一种跨地域的组织方法
And so not only is this a way to organize violating all management and geographic boundaries,
 
239
更是一种管理方式
it's also a way to manage.
 
240
管理者可以看到所有的讨论和决定
where one can see, again the thoughts, disagreements and decisions of a company
 
241
这在以前是不可想象的
fly by a manager in a way that they never could before.
 
242
它至少减少了一半的会议
And ah we have seen it reduce the number of meetings we have at least by fifty percent.
 
243
使得大家都能参与决策
we've seen it get far more managers and individual contributors involved in decisions than there ever were before.
 
244
决策质量大幅提高
We think the quality of the decisions is a lot higher.
 
245
它为管理者开了一扇窗户
And we've seen a window for management to
 
246
让他们能直接了解工作进展
look into the process of this organism we call our company
 
247
这在以前是不可想象的
in a way that has never before been possible.
 
248
网络将带来
A part of this electronically community that's going to provide us
 
249
强大的通信功能
wonderful new capabilities and communications abilities.
 
250
但有时我们需要断开网络
But we still always want to be able to disconnect that network spigot,
 
251
带着单机去别处  比如回家
take it off, and take our standalone computer somewhere, let's say home.
 
252
很快无线和光纤网络将普及到户
Now what's going to happen rapidly as with radio links and with fiber optics to the home,
 
253
即便在家  你也能联网
you're going to be able to hook your computer up to your network at home.
 
254
但总有一些偏远的地方û有网络
Ah but there's always going to be that cabin in the middle of nowhere
 
255
如果我带着电脑去度假
that I want to go for a two weeks of vacation where I want my computer.
 
256
却发现它不能脱机工作  那会很郁闷
And if it doesn't work in a completely standalone way, I'm going to be not happy.
 
257
所以必须提供一种灵活的方式  既能联网
So we have to provide a fluid way for these things to kind of dock into the mother load network,
 
258
又能随时脱机  带电脑去Yosemite野营
but also undock and allow me as an individual to carry my computer up into Yosemite backpacking.
 
259
既使û有网络也可以用电脑
And where there's you know no radio links and no fiber optic links and still be able to use it
 
260
回来一联网就能知道离开时发生的事
and then come back and dock back into the network and find out what happened when I left
 
261
并与他人分享想法
and share some of my thoughts maybe with some other folks.
 
262
我们正在研究这个
So we're working on that.
 
263
计划δ来5年
That's our goal for the next five years is that seamless transition between
 
264
实现单机和网络间的无缝衔接
a standalone computer and the computer as part of this network community.
 
265
但也失去了一直联网的好处
It also keeps away the welling aspects of always being hooked into the network.
 
266
是的
That's right.
 
267
事实上我认为网络
I actually think what an interesting paradox is the network
 
268
决定了δ来的计算机市场
which is ultimately going to define and create the home computer market.
 
269
这与我们1975年的预测不同
Not keeping our recipes on these things or something like we thought in 1975.
 
270
人们将离不开网络
Ah being a part of that network and not being able to stay away from it while you're home will
 
271
ÿ家都会安装计算机 就像电话一样
drive people to get computers in every house just like we have a telephone in every house.
 
272
到那时计算机就不是计算机了
But computers then won't be just computers.
 
273
它会变成收音机 音响 电视
They'll be radios, and stereos, and TVs.
 
274
不  计算机还是计算机
No I think, I think they'll be just computers.
 
275
就像电话不会变成电视
Just like your phone isn't your television set.
 
276
面包机不会变成收音机
Just like your toaster isn't your radio.
 
277
计算机会拥有更多功能
I think they'll be computers and they'll have many of the capabilities of these other devices.
 
278
整合声音和影像的多ý体时代即将来临
Ahm multimedia, the ability to integrate sound and video in with the computer is absolutely coming.
 
279
但很多人误把多ý体当成目的
But a lot of people have mistaken it as the end rather than the means.
 
280
其实多ý体只一种手段
Ah we see multi media as more of a means.
 
281
人们买计算机不是为了多ý体
In other words, people aren't going to buy a computer for multi media.
 
282
而是为了学习与交流
They're going to buy it for training. Or they're going to buy it for interpersonal communication.
 
283
除了用文字交流  人们也想用声音交流
And in that communication, in addition to text, they're going to want voice.
 
284
甚至用影像交流
They're going to want, potentially I might want to send you a video clip.
 
285
但真正的需求是学习与交流
But the real market is to help us communicate better, or to help us train somebody.
 
286
我们必须牢记这一点
And ah we need to not lose sight of that.
 
287
我想知道你对用户界面的看法
I want to get your thoughts on the user interface stuff.
 
288
以及施乐对苹果的影响
And I'd like to look at the transition ah Xerox to Apple.
 
289
OK
OK
 
290
施乐帕克给你的第一印象是什ô？
What was the image of Xerox PARC and what was it like when you first went in there?
 
291
施乐帕克是一所研究中心
Ahm well Xerox PARC was a...a research lab set up by Xerox
 
292
施乐卖复印机赚了很多钱
when they were making a lot of profits in copier days.
 
293
他们做了许多基础性研究
And ah they were doing some computer science research which was basically an extension of some stuff
 
294
带头人叫Doug Engelbart
started by a guy named Doug Engelbart when he was at SRI.
 
295
Doug发明了鼠标和点阵图显示器
Doug had invented the mouse, and invented the Bitmapped display.
 
296
施乐千方百计挖来Doug
And some Xerox folks that...that Xerox ah I believe hired away from Doug
 
297
继续做研究
or split off from Doug somehow and got to Xerox, were continuing along in this vain.
 
298
1979年我第一次去参观
And I first went over there in 1979
 
299
他们正在研发大屏幕显示器
and I saw what they were doing with ah the larger screens,
 
300
等比例字体和鼠标
ah proportionately spaced texts ah and the mouse.
 
301
很显然δ来的计算机就应该是这样
And it was just instantly obvious to anyone that this was the way things should be.
 
302
参观后我明白了
Ahm and so I remember coming back to Apple thinking our...
 
303
这就是苹果δ来的发展方向
our future has just changed. This is where we have to go.
 
304
问题是  施乐从δ批量生产计算机
The problem was that Xerox had never made a commercial computer.
 
305
他们更擅长做基础研究
This group of people at Xerox was…was ah was more concerned with...with ah looking out fifteen years
 
306
而不是在短期内推出产品
than they were looking out fifteen months trying to make a product that somebody could use.
 
307
所以很多实用问题都û解决 比如菜单
So there were a lot of issues that they hadn't solved like menus, other things like that.
 
308
所以苹果有两个选择
And at Apple what we had to do was to do two things.
 
309
第一是等施乐完成这些研究
One was complete the research which really was only about fifty percent complete.
 
310
第二是自行开发  降低产品成本
And the second was to find a way to implement it at a low enough cost where people would buy it.
 
311
难度不小
And that was really our challenge.
 
312
你认为苹果电脑成功在哪里？
What did you succeed in doing with the MAC?
 
313
Macintosh问世时被称作业余人士专用电脑
Well the Macintosh as you remember when it came out, we called it the computer for the rest of us.
 
314
专业人士有专业计算机
And what that meant was ah that while experts could use some of the computers that were already out,
 
315
普通人却嫌它们太难用
most people didn't want, again
 
316
因为电脑不是目的而是手段
the computer was not an end in itself. It was a means to an end.
 
317
人们不接受难用的电脑
And so most people didn't want to learn how to use the computer. They just wanted to use it.
 
318
Macintosh就是给那些
And the Macintosh was supposed to be the computer for people that just wanted to
 
319
不愿花时间学电脑的人用的
use a computer without having to learn how to use one, spend six months.
 
320
问题在于  越好用的电脑
Now it turned out that the...the paradox was that to make a computer easier to use
 
321
开发难度就越大
you needed a more powerful computer in the first place
 
322
要花很多时间解决易用性问题
because you were going to burn a lot of the cycles on making it easy to use.
 
323
这样的电脑其实功能更多
And so this computer that was easy to use was actually more powerful
 
324
也更强大
and could do more things than the less easy to use computer.
 
325
人们过了好久才明白这一点
And it took people a few years to figure that out about the Macintosh.
 
326
现在他们终于明白了
But I think ah, I think people did.
 
327
我听过一个笑话
Actually there's a funny joke that we were clowning around one day.
 
328
IBM的同事说
And one of our group is an IBM person. And so he was saying,
 
329
一个小女孩看到电脑提示符
some little girl walks up and sees a prompt
 
330
对爸爸说电脑坏了
and goes to her daddy and says "it's broken".
 
331
我的桌面呢？
Where's my desktop? Where's...where's my metaphor.
 
332
现在人们已经接受了桌面这个比喻
And we've gotten, we've...we've adopted this new metaphor.
 
333
苹果是如何改变电脑界面的？
How has that changed the look of computers?
 
334
苹果电脑的开发团队认为
Well I think, I think the Macintosh was created by a group of people
 
335
科学与艺术间û有严格界限
who felt that ah there wasn't a strict vision between sort of science and art.
 
336
换个角度看
Or in other words, that mathematics is really a liberal art
 
337
数学也是一门艺术
if you look at it from a slightly different point of view.
 
338
何不把字体设计用在电脑上呢？
And why can't we interject typography in the computers?
 
339
何不让电脑开口发音呢？
Why can't we have computers ah...ah talking to us in English language?
 
340
现在人们对这些已经习以为常
And looking back, five years later, this seems like a trivial observation.
 
341
但当时却是非常大胆的预测
But at the time it was cataclysmic in its consequences.
 
342
为此我们付出了艰辛的努力
And the battles that were fought to push this point of view out the door were very large.